> Now I am confused. Why its down today when both silver and gold are
> up...Any ideas folks? Are they issuing more shares or something?

> I am with you!  I 'm shock!  What happened!  This stock is supposed to
> safer than GLD because its gold and silver are audited.  Answers,
> please.

> That wasn't much an answer, was it...

> I would guess that some larger CEF players were doing some end-of-
> month or quarter reallocation (mandatory for their ratios), and given
> the flatness of the metals (slow crawl up) right now, low volume made
> for bigger swings. To be sure, I would guess they weren't happy having
> to sell into the decline (that they were causing) either.

> I do believe that over time, CEF  maintains decent average tracking.
> And watch their NAV/premium as part of your sell timing.

> http://www.centralfund.com- look for Net Asset Value button.

> --ikk

> On May 6, 10:39 am, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > I am with you!  I 'm shock!  What happened!  This stock is supposed to
> > safer than GLD because its gold and silver are audited.  Answers,
> > please.- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

> GTU is a related stock owned by the same entity.  They (GTU) issued a
> large number of shares this morning, bringing their premium way down
> today, causing their share price to go down.  It looks like some
> investors are getting nervous and jumping ship on CEF, on speculation
> that the same will happen with CEF too.  However, they (CEF) already
> released a huge number of shares last month and their premium is
> already way down so this scenario is unlikely.  Both stocks will
> rebound soon enough.  Today's decline is just a knee-jerk reaction to
> GTU shares today.  These dips are a good opportunity to accumulate
> more at a discounted price.

> On May 6, 3:58 pm, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > That wasn't much an answer, was it...

> > I would guess that some larger CEF players were doing some end-of-
> > month or quarter reallocation (mandatory for their ratios), and given
> > the flatness of the metals (slow crawl up) right now, low volume made
> > for bigger swings. To be sure, I would guess they weren't happy having
> > to sell into the decline (that they were causing) either.

> > I do believe that over time, CEF  maintains decent average tracking.
> > And watch their NAV/premium as part of your sell timing.

> >http://www.centralfund.com-look for Net Asset Value button.

> > --ikk

> > On May 6, 10:39 am, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > I am with you!  I 'm shock!  What happened!  This stock is supposed to
> > > safer than GLD because its gold and silver are audited.  Answers,
> > > please.- Hide quoted text -

> > - Show quoted text -

> The Central Fund of Canada (CEF) is a pure, safe, easy way to play my
> hunch that the USD will inflate and gold and silver will appreciate in
> value faster than most stocks.  Actual, physical bars of fine gold and
> silver are stored in the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce’s vaults:
> only 0.7% of the bullion is in certificate form.  No “fiat money” in
> this stock.

> Shares trade on the AMEX at a discount or premium to net asset value.
> Go tohttp://www.centralfund.com/to check out NAV and other facts
> about CEF.  Today, the premium is +8.2% of the London gold price.  As
> of May 7, 2009 CEF is –5.7% while the S&P is –38.4%, though the S&P
> has beaten CEF during the recent run-up.  CEF’s chart looks like a
> boring investment, paying a microscopic dividend.  That’s the
> definition of “dead money”.

> But …

> Go back to my first paragraph!  Maybe – just MAYBE – the gold bugs and
> other doomsday lunatics are right.  What if the USD drops massively
> against other currencies?  What if everybody in the world thinks
> precious metals are the only "Sound Monetary Fund” the Central Fund of
> Canada says it will be?  How will you feel having nothing that even
> resembles a gold bar in your house?

> I feel like a fool even asking these questions.  Or at least I did
> until 2009.

> Dave

> Anyone have any more thoughts on why CEF is not tracking this week?
> It was down about twice as much as it should have been today.  Is this
> all based on rumors of a "dilution" like they did with GTU?

> On May 7, 3:22 pm, davemcc3...@gmail.com wrote:

> > The Central Fund of Canada (CEF) is a pure, safe, easy way to play my
> > hunch that the USD will inflate and gold and silver will appreciate in
> > value faster than most stocks.  Actual, physical bars of fine gold and
> > silver are stored in the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce’s vaults:
> > only 0.7% of the bullion is in certificate form.  No “fiat money” in
> > this stock.

> > Shares trade on the AMEX at a discount or premium to net asset value.
> > Go tohttp://www.centralfund.com/tocheck out NAV and other facts
> > about CEF.  Today, the premium is +8.2% of the London gold price.  As
> > of May 7, 2009 CEF is –5.7% while the S&P is –38.4%, though the S&P
> > has beaten CEF during the recent run-up.  CEF’s chart looks like a
> > boring investment, paying a microscopic dividend.  That’s the
> > definition of “dead money”.

> > But …

> > Go back to my first paragraph!  Maybe – just MAYBE – the gold bugs and
> > other doomsday lunatics are right.  What if the USD drops massively
> > against other currencies?  What if everybody in the world thinks
> > precious metals are the only "Sound Monetary Fund” the Central Fund of
> > Canada says it will be?  How will you feel having nothing that even
> > resembles a gold bar in your house?

> > I feel like a fool even asking these questions.  Or at least I did
> > until 2009.

> > Dave

> man, that's just F---d up. The NAV premium is down to 6ish percent
> (from 11-13 last week).

> look for dilution in early july, unless they get/got special
> "permission" of some kind (according to the prospectus).

> It looks like this beast is both a bet on the actual metals, as well
> as a bet on the NAV premium. Metals I can grock, this premium, if it's
> stable (e.g. 11%) is transparent, but when the premium drops 5% for no
> apparent reason, how can one calculate the risks, etc. Maybe it's back
> to GLD, as much as I hate the JPM associations.

> I suppose it's a good time to buy. Has anyone kept track of the MAV/
> premium graph to know where it usually sits? I've found 11-15% most of
> the time I've looked, so I quit looking...

> maybe i should just quit looking at it... for a few years...

> best luck to all.

> --ikk

> On May 13, 10:02 am, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Anyone have any more thoughts on why CEF is not tracking this week?
> > It was down about twice as much as it should have been today.  Is this
> > all based on rumors of a "dilution" like they did with GTU?

> > On May 7, 3:22 pm, davemcc3...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > The Central Fund of Canada (CEF) is a pure, safe, easy way to play my
> > > hunch that the USD will inflate and gold and silver will appreciate in
> > > value faster than most stocks.  Actual, physical bars of fine gold and
> > > silver are stored in the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce’s vaults:
> > > only 0.7% of the bullion is in certificate form.  No “fiat money” in
> > > this stock.

> > > Shares trade on the AMEX at a discount or premium to net asset value.
> > > Go tohttp://www.centralfund.com/tocheckout NAV and other facts
> > > about CEF.  Today, the premium is +8.2% of the London gold price.  As
> > > of May 7, 2009 CEF is –5.7% while the S&P is –38.4%, though the S&P
> > > has beaten CEF during the recent run-up.  CEF’s chart looks like a
> > > boring investment, paying a microscopic dividend.  That’s the
> > > definition of “dead money”.

> > > But …

> > > Go back to my first paragraph!  Maybe – just MAYBE – the gold bugs and
> > > other doomsday lunatics are right.  What if the USD drops massively
> > > against other currencies?  What if everybody in the world thinks
> > > precious metals are the only "Sound Monetary Fund” the Central Fund of
> > > Canada says it will be?  How will you feel having nothing that even
> > > resembles a gold bar in your house?

> > > I feel like a fool even asking these questions.  Or at least I did
> > > until 2009.

> > > Dave

> This is disturbing short term, but I still think it's an opportunity.
> I feel way more comfortable with the safety/honesty of CEF compared to
> GLD/SLV and I feel it justifies a significant premium over those.
> You're right though, I hadn't paid much attention to the NAV premium
> and definitely will in the future.  I would expect the premium to
> fluctuate proportional to the amount of fear in the market.  I bet the
> premium will go up significantly if (when) there are renewed concerns
> about the insolvency of the big banks later this year/next year.

> On May 13, 1:44 pm, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > man, that's just F---d up. The NAV premium is down to 6ish percent
> > (from 11-13 last week).

> > look for dilution in early july, unless they get/got special
> > "permission" of some kind (according to the prospectus).

> > It looks like this beast is both a bet on the actual metals, as well
> > as a bet on the NAV premium. Metals I can grock, this premium, if it's
> > stable (e.g. 11%) is transparent, but when the premium drops 5% for no
> > apparent reason, how can one calculate the risks, etc. Maybe it's back
> > to GLD, as much as I hate the JPM associations.

> > I suppose it's a good time to buy. Has anyone kept track of the MAV/
> > premium graph to know where it usually sits? I've found 11-15% most of
> > the time I've looked, so I quit looking...

> > maybe i should just quit looking at it... for a few years...

> > best luck to all.

> > --ikk

> > On May 13, 10:02 am, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > Anyone have any more thoughts on why CEF is not tracking this week?
> > > It was down about twice as much as it should have been today.  Is this
> > > all based on rumors of a "dilution" like they did with GTU?

> > > On May 7, 3:22 pm, davemcc3...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > The Central Fund of Canada (CEF) is a pure, safe, easy way to play my
> > > > hunch that the USD will inflate and gold and silver will appreciate in
> > > > value faster than most stocks.  Actual, physical bars of fine gold and
> > > > silver are stored in the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce’s vaults:
> > > > only 0.7% of the bullion is in certificate form.  No “fiat money” in
> > > > this stock.

> > > > Shares trade on the AMEX at a discount or premium to net asset value.
> > > > Go tohttp://www.centralfund.com/tocheckoutNAV and other facts
> > > > about CEF.  Today, the premium is +8.2% of the London gold price.  As
> > > > of May 7, 2009 CEF is –5.7% while the S&P is –38.4%, though the S&P
> > > > has beaten CEF during the recent run-up.  CEF’s chart looks like a
> > > > boring investment, paying a microscopic dividend.  That’s the
> > > > definition of “dead money”.

> > > > But …

> > > > Go back to my first paragraph!  Maybe – just MAYBE – the gold bugs and
> > > > other doomsday lunatics are right.  What if the USD drops massively
> > > > against other currencies?  What if everybody in the world thinks
> > > > precious metals are the only "Sound Monetary Fund” the Central Fund of
> > > > Canada says it will be?  How will you feel having nothing that even
> > > > resembles a gold bar in your house?

> > > > I feel like a fool even asking these questions.  Or at least I did
> > > > until 2009.

> > > > Dave- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

> I used GLD/SLV from november 2008 to January 2009.
> They both faithfully tracked the kitco spot prices.  Not once did they
> had sudden down shifts in prices.  But I suspect that they are full
> of
> derviatives.  So, I switched to CEF.A.  But, all these sudden
> downturns turns in CEF.A are getting me nervous.

> On May 13, 5:54 pm, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > This is disturbing short term, but I still think it's an opportunity.
> > I feel way more comfortable with the safety/honesty of CEF compared to
> > GLD/SLV and I feel it justifies a significant premium over those.
> > You're right though, I hadn't paid much attention to the NAV premium
> > and definitely will in the future.  I would expect the premium to
> > fluctuate proportional to the amount of fear in the market.  I bet the
> > premium will go up significantly if (when) there are renewed concerns
> > about the insolvency of the big banks later this year/next year.

> > On May 13, 1:44 pm, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > man, that's just F---d up. The NAV premium is down to 6ish percent
> > > (from 11-13 last week).

> > > look for dilution in early july, unless they get/got special
> > > "permission" of some kind (according to the prospectus).

> > > It looks like this beast is both a bet on the actual metals, as well
> > > as a bet on the NAV premium. Metals I can grock, this premium, if it's
> > > stable (e.g. 11%) is transparent, but when the premium drops 5% for no
> > > apparent reason, how can one calculate the risks, etc. Maybe it's back
> > > to GLD, as much as I hate the JPM associations.

> > > I suppose it's a good time to buy. Has anyone kept track of the MAV/
> > > premium graph to know where it usually sits? I've found 11-15% most of
> > > the time I've looked, so I quit looking...

> > > maybe i should just quit looking at it... for a few years...

> > > best luck to all.

> > > --ikk

> > > On May 13, 10:02 am, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > Anyone have any more thoughts on why CEF is not tracking this week?
> > > > It was down about twice as much as it should have been today.  Is this
> > > > all based on rumors of a "dilution" like they did with GTU?

> > > > On May 7, 3:22 pm, davemcc3...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > The Central Fund of Canada (CEF) is a pure, safe, easy way to play my
> > > > > hunch that the USD will inflate and gold and silver will appreciate in
> > > > > value faster than most stocks.  Actual, physical bars of fine gold and
> > > > > silver are stored in the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce’s vaults:
> > > > > only 0.7% of the bullion is in certificate form.  No “fiat money” in
> > > > > this stock.

> > > > > Shares trade on the AMEX at a discount or premium to net asset value.
> > > > > Go tohttp://www.centralfund.com/tocheckoutNAVand other facts
> > > > > about CEF.  Today, the premium is +8.2% of the London gold price.  As
> > > > > of May 7, 2009 CEF is –5.7% while the S&P is –38.4%, though the S&P
> > > > > has beaten CEF during the recent run-up.  CEF’s chart looks like a
> > > > > boring investment, paying a microscopic dividend.  That’s the
> > > > > definition of “dead money”.

> > > > > But …

> > > > > Go back to my first paragraph!  Maybe – just MAYBE – the gold bugs and
> > > > > other doomsday lunatics are right.  What if the USD drops massively
> > > > > against other currencies?  What if everybody in the world thinks
> > > > > precious metals are the only "Sound Monetary Fund” the Central Fund of
> > > > > Canada says it will be?  How will you feel having nothing that even
> > > > > resembles a gold bar in your house?

> > > > > I feel like a fool even asking these questions.  Or at least I did
> > > > > until 2009.

> > > > > Dave- Hide quoted text -

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

> Can the devaluation of the US dollar affect CEF?

> On May 13, 6:54 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > I used GLD/SLV from november 2008 to January 2009.
> > They both faithfully tracked the kitco spot prices.  Not once did they
> > had sudden down shifts in prices.  But I suspect that they are full
> > of
> > derviatives.  So, I switched to CEF.A.  But, all these sudden
> > downturns turns in CEF.A are getting me nervous.

> > On May 13, 5:54 pm, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > This is disturbing short term, but I still think it's an opportunity.
> > > I feel way more comfortable with the safety/honesty of CEF compared to
> > > GLD/SLV and I feel it justifies a significant premium over those.
> > > You're right though, I hadn't paid much attention to the NAV premium
> > > and definitely will in the future.  I would expect the premium to
> > > fluctuate proportional to the amount of fear in the market.  I bet the
> > > premium will go up significantly if (when) there are renewed concerns
> > > about the insolvency of the big banks later this year/next year.

> > > On May 13, 1:44 pm, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > man, that's just F---d up. The NAV premium is down to 6ish percent
> > > > (from 11-13 last week).

> > > > look for dilution in early july, unless they get/got special
> > > > "permission" of some kind (according to the prospectus).

> > > > It looks like this beast is both a bet on the actual metals, as well
> > > > as a bet on the NAV premium. Metals I can grock, this premium, if it's
> > > > stable (e.g. 11%) is transparent, but when the premium drops 5% for no
> > > > apparent reason, how can one calculate the risks, etc. Maybe it's back
> > > > to GLD, as much as I hate the JPM associations.

> > > > I suppose it's a good time to buy. Has anyone kept track of the MAV/
> > > > premium graph to know where it usually sits? I've found 11-15% most of
> > > > the time I've looked, so I quit looking...

> > > > maybe i should just quit looking at it... for a few years...

> > > > best luck to all.

> > > > --ikk

> > > > On May 13, 10:02 am, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > Anyone have any more thoughts on why CEF is not tracking this week?
> > > > > It was down about twice as much as it should have been today.  Is this
> > > > > all based on rumors of a "dilution" like they did with GTU?

> > > > > On May 7, 3:22 pm, davemcc3...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > The Central Fund of Canada (CEF) is a pure, safe, easy way to play my
> > > > > > hunch that the USD will inflate and gold and silver will appreciate in
> > > > > > value faster than most stocks.  Actual, physical bars of fine gold and
> > > > > > silver are stored in the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce’s vaults:
> > > > > > only 0.7% of the bullion is in certificate form.  No “fiat money” in
> > > > > > this stock.

> > > > > > Shares trade on the AMEX at a discount or premium to net asset value.
> > > > > > Go tohttp://www.centralfund.com/tocheckoutNAVandother facts
> > > > > > about CEF.  Today, the premium is +8.2% of the London gold price.  As
> > > > > > of May 7, 2009 CEF is –5.7% while the S&P is –38.4%, though the S&P
> > > > > > has beaten CEF during the recent run-up.  CEF’s chart looks like a
> > > > > > boring investment, paying a microscopic dividend.  That’s the
> > > > > > definition of “dead money”.

> > > > > > But …

> > > > > > Go back to my first paragraph!  Maybe – just MAYBE – the gold bugs and
> > > > > > other doomsday lunatics are right.  What if the USD drops massively
> > > > > > against other currencies?  What if everybody in the world thinks
> > > > > > precious metals are the only "Sound Monetary Fund” the Central Fund of
> > > > > > Canada says it will be?  How will you feel having nothing that even
> > > > > > resembles a gold bar in your house?

> > > > > > I feel like a fool even asking these questions.  Or at least I did
> > > > > > until 2009.

> > > > > > Dave- Hide quoted text -

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> > - Show quoted text -

> It would seem like it would, but CEF has both a USD based and a CAD
> based ticker for amex/tsx exchanges, respectively. I've assumed that
> this distinction would take into account currency exchange, etc. With
> that NAV premium floating around in there it is pretty hard to
> separate/track the trends.

> It certainly has NOT gone up proportionately to the CAD jump of the
> last two weeks, in fact, it barely tracked rising Gold/Silver,
> especially when GTU had its offering and distorted things a few weeks
> back. I don't think it's actually recovered from that dip yet, let
> alone today's aberrant drop.

> But it sure seems to be following the CAD down.

> To be sure, unlike GLD, this is truly a standalone, market-based
> vehicle, with no assurances that the underlying value will be
> appreciated/sought by *anyone*. GLD, by contract, acquires and
> dispenses real gold based on the share count. Conversely, CEF has a
> large, but *fixed* amount of real gold/silver with fixed shares, and
> hopes that folks will want CEF's gold/silver as much as they might
> want competing GLD, coins, jewelry, etc.

> Right now, it looks like, CEF isn't nearly as attractive as those
> alternatives... Looking at the last four months of graphs, I'm not
> sure why I'm here either. It's either a scam, or a badly run
> enterprise. Assuming that it's early 1960's birth would have taught
> them something about the biz, it's probably a scam... (I'm kind of
> hoping someone there is reading this and hearing my disgust... Given
> that they never responded to a direct email, I don't think the holders
> of this billion in metals gives a damn.)

> Like you, I'm hoping maybe some sort of rush will drive the premium
> back to where we bought, and carry the underlying value back up to
> where it should be.

> cheers,

> --ikk

> On May 13, 4:03 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Can the devaluation of the US dollar affect CEF?

> > On May 13, 6:54 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > I used GLD/SLV from november 2008 to January 2009.
> > > They both faithfully tracked the kitco spot prices.  Not once did they
> > > had sudden down shifts in prices.  But I suspect that they are full
> > > of
> > > derviatives.  So, I switched to CEF.A.  But, all these sudden
> > > downturns turns in CEF.A are getting me nervous.

> > > On May 13, 5:54 pm, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > This is disturbing short term, but I still think it's an opportunity.
> > > > I feel way more comfortable with the safety/honesty of CEF compared to
> > > > GLD/SLV and I feel it justifies a significant premium over those.
> > > > You're right though, I hadn't paid much attention to the NAV premium
> > > > and definitely will in the future.  I would expect the premium to
> > > > fluctuate proportional to the amount of fear in the market.  I bet the
> > > > premium will go up significantly if (when) there are renewed concerns
> > > > about the insolvency of the big banks later this year/next year.

> > > > On May 13, 1:44 pm, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > man, that's just F---d up. The NAV premium is down to 6ish percent
> > > > > (from 11-13 last week).

> > > > > look for dilution in early july, unless they get/got special
> > > > > "permission" of some kind (according to the prospectus).

> > > > > It looks like this beast is both a bet on the actual metals, as well
> > > > > as a bet on the NAV premium. Metals I can grock, this premium, if it's
> > > > > stable (e.g. 11%) is transparent, but when the premium drops 5% for no
> > > > > apparent reason, how can one calculate the risks, etc. Maybe it's back
> > > > > to GLD, as much as I hate the JPM associations.

> > > > > I suppose it's a good time to buy. Has anyone kept track of the MAV/
> > > > > premium graph to know where it usually sits? I've found 11-15% most of
> > > > > the time I've looked, so I quit looking...

> > > > > maybe i should just quit looking at it... for a few years...

> > > > > best luck to all.

> > > > > --ikk

> > > > > On May 13, 10:02 am, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > Anyone have any more thoughts on why CEF is not tracking this week?
> > > > > > It was down about twice as much as it should have been today.  Is this
> > > > > > all based on rumors of a "dilution" like they did with GTU?

> > > > > > On May 7, 3:22 pm, davemcc3...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > The Central Fund of Canada (CEF) is a pure, safe, easy way to play my
> > > > > > > hunch that the USD will inflate and gold and silver will appreciate in
> > > > > > > value faster than most stocks.  Actual, physical bars of fine gold and
> > > > > > > silver are stored in the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce’s vaults:
> > > > > > > only 0.7% of the bullion is in certificate form.  No “fiat money” in
> > > > > > > this stock.

> > > > > > > Shares trade on the AMEX at a discount or premium to net asset value.
> > > > > > > Go tohttp://www.centralfund.com/tocheckoutNAVandotherfacts
> > > > > > > about CEF.  Today, the premium is +8.2% of the London gold price.  As
> > > > > > > of May 7, 2009 CEF is –5.7% while the S&P is –38.4%, though the S&P
> > > > > > > has beaten CEF during the recent run-up.  CEF’s chart looks like a
> > > > > > > boring investment, paying a microscopic dividend.  That’s the
> > > > > > > definition of “dead money”.

> > > > > > > But …

> > > > > > > Go back to my first paragraph!  Maybe – just MAYBE – the gold bugs and
> > > > > > > other doomsday lunatics are right.  What if the USD drops massively
> > > > > > > against other currencies?  What if everybody in the world thinks
> > > > > > > precious metals are the only "Sound Monetary Fund” the Central Fund of
> > > > > > > Canada says it will be?  How will you feel having nothing that even
> > > > > > > resembles a gold bar in your house?

> > > > > > > I feel like a fool even asking these questions.  Or at least I did
> > > > > > > until 2009.

> > > > > > > Dave- Hide quoted text -

> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

> CEF has already shown me twice within one month to go down,
> decoupling from upward Kitco gold price movements.

> To me, that is a huge loss of money and I now have to pray that
> it goes back up.  These sudden downturns screw up my timing to
> sell CEF at a profit.  So, why should I stay with CEF?  Like I said
> before, I never had this problem with GLD or SLV.

> If I do not want the hassle of owning physical gold, then I should
> have gone for gold certificates and not for ETFs.  I would get only
> the certificates which can be exchange for bullions if I wanted to do
> it.
> There are many reputable companies out there; such as The Perth
> Mint Certificate Program, Royal Canadian Mint Prestige Account,
> Scotiabank Gold Certificates, etc…

> I made a mistake with CEF.

> Best of luck.

> On May 14, 12:30 am, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > It would seem like it would, but CEF has both a USD based and a CAD
> > based ticker for amex/tsx exchanges, respectively. I've assumed that
> > this distinction would take into account currency exchange, etc. With
> > that NAV premium floating around in there it is pretty hard to
> > separate/track the trends.

> > It certainly has NOT gone up proportionately to the CAD jump of the
> > last two weeks, in fact, it barely tracked rising Gold/Silver,
> > especially when GTU had its offering and distorted things a few weeks
> > back. I don't think it's actually recovered from that dip yet, let
> > alone today's aberrant drop.

> > But it sure seems to be following the CAD down.

> > To be sure, unlike GLD, this is truly a standalone, market-based
> > vehicle, with no assurances that the underlying value will be
> > appreciated/sought by *anyone*. GLD, by contract, acquires and
> > dispenses real gold based on the share count. Conversely, CEF has a
> > large, but *fixed* amount of real gold/silver with fixed shares, and
> > hopes that folks will want CEF's gold/silver as much as they might
> > want competing GLD, coins, jewelry, etc.

> > Right now, it looks like, CEF isn't nearly as attractive as those
> > alternatives... Looking at the last four months of graphs, I'm not
> > sure why I'm here either. It's either a scam, or a badly run
> > enterprise. Assuming that it's early 1960's birth would have taught
> > them something about the biz, it's probably a scam... (I'm kind of
> > hoping someone there is reading this and hearing my disgust... Given
> > that they never responded to a direct email, I don't think the holders
> > of this billion in metals gives a damn.)

> > Like you, I'm hoping maybe some sort of rush will drive the premium
> > back to where we bought, and carry the underlying value back up to
> > where it should be.

> > cheers,

> > --ikk

> > On May 13, 4:03 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > Can the devaluation of the US dollar affect CEF?

> > > On May 13, 6:54 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > I used GLD/SLV from november 2008 to January 2009.
> > > > They both faithfully tracked the kitco spot prices.  Not once did they
> > > > had sudden down shifts in prices.  But I suspect that they are full
> > > > of
> > > > derviatives.  So, I switched to CEF.A.  But, all these sudden
> > > > downturns turns in CEF.A are getting me nervous.

> > > > On May 13, 5:54 pm, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > This is disturbing short term, but I still think it's an opportunity.
> > > > > I feel way more comfortable with the safety/honesty of CEF compared to
> > > > > GLD/SLV and I feel it justifies a significant premium over those.
> > > > > You're right though, I hadn't paid much attention to the NAV premium
> > > > > and definitely will in the future.  I would expect the premium to
> > > > > fluctuate proportional to the amount of fear in the market.  I bet the
> > > > > premium will go up significantly if (when) there are renewed concerns
> > > > > about the insolvency of the big banks later this year/next year.

> > > > > On May 13, 1:44 pm, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > man, that's just F---d up. The NAV premium is down to 6ish percent
> > > > > > (from 11-13 last week).

> > > > > > look for dilution in early july, unless they get/got special
> > > > > > "permission" of some kind (according to the prospectus).

> > > > > > It looks like this beast is both a bet on the actual metals, as well
> > > > > > as a bet on the NAV premium. Metals I can grock, this premium, if it's
> > > > > > stable (e.g. 11%) is transparent, but when the premium drops 5% for no
> > > > > > apparent reason, how can one calculate the risks, etc. Maybe it's back
> > > > > > to GLD, as much as I hate the JPM associations.

> > > > > > I suppose it's a good time to buy. Has anyone kept track of the MAV/
> > > > > > premium graph to know where it usually sits? I've found 11-15% most of
> > > > > > the time I've looked, so I quit looking...

> > > > > > maybe i should just quit looking at it... for a few years...

> > > > > > best luck to all.

> > > > > > --ikk

> > > > > > On May 13, 10:02 am, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > Anyone have any more thoughts on why CEF is not tracking this week?
> > > > > > > It was down about twice as much as it should have been today.  Is this
> > > > > > > all based on rumors of a "dilution" like they did with GTU?

> > > > > > > On May 7, 3:22 pm, davemcc3...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > The Central Fund of Canada (CEF) is a pure, safe, easy way to play my
> > > > > > > > hunch that the USD will inflate and gold and silver will appreciate in
> > > > > > > > value faster than most stocks.  Actual, physical bars of fine gold and
> > > > > > > > silver are stored in the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce’s vaults:
> > > > > > > > only 0.7% of the bullion is in certificate form.  No “fiat money” in
> > > > > > > > this stock.

> > > > > > > > Shares trade on the AMEX at a discount or premium to net asset value.
> > > > > > > > Go tohttp://www.centralfund.com/tocheckoutNAVandotherfacts
> > > > > > > > about CEF.  Today, the premium is +8.2% of the London gold price.  As
> > > > > > > > of May 7, 2009 CEF is –5.7% while the S&P is –38.4%, though the S&P
> > > > > > > > has beaten CEF during the recent run-up.  CEF’s chart looks like a
> > > > > > > > boring investment, paying a microscopic dividend.  That’s the
> > > > > > > > definition of “dead money”.

> > > > > > > > But …

> > > > > > > > Go back to my first paragraph!  Maybe – just MAYBE – the gold bugs and
> > > > > > > > other doomsday lunatics are right.  What if the USD drops massively
> > > > > > > > against other currencies?  What if everybody in the world thinks
> > > > > > > > precious metals are the only "Sound Monetary Fund” the Central Fund of
> > > > > > > > Canada says it will be?  How will you feel having nothing that even
> > > > > > > > resembles a gold bar in your house?

> > > > > > > > I feel like a fool even asking these questions.  Or at least I did
> > > > > > > > until 2009.

> > > > > > > > Dave- Hide quoted text -

> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> > - Show quoted text -

> You definitely cannot use CEF for short term trades due to its short
> term unpredictable fluctuations.  But if you compare its long term
> performance to GLD and SLV, it looks like it maybe even outperforms
> them (put all three tickers on the same chart and CEF tends to be
> higher than the midpoint of GLD and SLV over the long run).

> I do not trust GLD and SLV to actually have the bullion they say they
> do.  I am happy to trade them short term but do not feel comfortable
> holding them through a financial panic, as I wouldn't want to be
> holding them if rumors start circulating that HSBC or Barclays or any
> of their myriad of "sub-custodians" doesn't actually have the physical
> bullion they claim to.  If CEF doesn't start behaving again in the
> next month I'll have to just switch to physical ownership and
> certificates.

> On May 13, 10:52 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > CEF has already shown me twice within one month to go down,
> > decoupling from upward Kitco gold price movements.

> > To me, that is a huge loss of money and I now have to pray that
> > it goes back up.  These sudden downturns screw up my timing to
> > sell CEF at a profit.  So, why should I stay with CEF?  Like I said
> > before, I never had this problem with GLD or SLV.

> > If I do not want the hassle of owning physical gold, then I should
> > have gone for gold certificates and not for ETFs.  I would get only
> > the certificates which can be exchange for bullions if I wanted to do
> > it.
> > There are many reputable companies out there; such as The Perth
> > Mint Certificate Program, Royal Canadian Mint Prestige Account,
> > Scotiabank Gold Certificates, etc…

> > I made a mistake with CEF.

> > Best of luck.

> > On May 14, 12:30 am, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > It would seem like it would, but CEF has both a USD based and a CAD
> > > based ticker for amex/tsx exchanges, respectively. I've assumed that
> > > this distinction would take into account currency exchange, etc. With
> > > that NAV premium floating around in there it is pretty hard to
> > > separate/track the trends.

> > > It certainly has NOT gone up proportionately to the CAD jump of the
> > > last two weeks, in fact, it barely tracked rising Gold/Silver,
> > > especially when GTU had its offering and distorted things a few weeks
> > > back. I don't think it's actually recovered from that dip yet, let
> > > alone today's aberrant drop.

> > > But it sure seems to be following the CAD down.

> > > To be sure, unlike GLD, this is truly a standalone, market-based
> > > vehicle, with no assurances that the underlying value will be
> > > appreciated/sought by *anyone*. GLD, by contract, acquires and
> > > dispenses real gold based on the share count. Conversely, CEF has a
> > > large, but *fixed* amount of real gold/silver with fixed shares, and
> > > hopes that folks will want CEF's gold/silver as much as they might
> > > want competing GLD, coins, jewelry, etc.

> > > Right now, it looks like, CEF isn't nearly as attractive as those
> > > alternatives... Looking at the last four months of graphs, I'm not
> > > sure why I'm here either. It's either a scam, or a badly run
> > > enterprise. Assuming that it's early 1960's birth would have taught
> > > them something about the biz, it's probably a scam... (I'm kind of
> > > hoping someone there is reading this and hearing my disgust... Given
> > > that they never responded to a direct email, I don't think the holders
> > > of this billion in metals gives a damn.)

> > > Like you, I'm hoping maybe some sort of rush will drive the premium
> > > back to where we bought, and carry the underlying value back up to
> > > where it should be.

> > > cheers,

> > > --ikk

> > > On May 13, 4:03 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > Can the devaluation of the US dollar affect CEF?

> > > > On May 13, 6:54 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > I used GLD/SLV from november 2008 to January 2009.
> > > > > They both faithfully tracked the kitco spot prices.  Not once did they
> > > > > had sudden down shifts in prices.  But I suspect that they are full
> > > > > of
> > > > > derviatives.  So, I switched to CEF.A.  But, all these sudden
> > > > > downturns turns in CEF.A are getting me nervous.

> > > > > On May 13, 5:54 pm, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > This is disturbing short term, but I still think it's an opportunity.
> > > > > > I feel way more comfortable with the safety/honesty of CEF compared to
> > > > > > GLD/SLV and I feel it justifies a significant premium over those.
> > > > > > You're right though, I hadn't paid much attention to the NAV premium
> > > > > > and definitely will in the future.  I would expect the premium to
> > > > > > fluctuate proportional to the amount of fear in the market.  I bet the
> > > > > > premium will go up significantly if (when) there are renewed concerns
> > > > > > about the insolvency of the big banks later this year/next year.

> > > > > > On May 13, 1:44 pm, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > man, that's just F---d up. The NAV premium is down to 6ish percent
> > > > > > > (from 11-13 last week).

> > > > > > > look for dilution in early july, unless they get/got special
> > > > > > > "permission" of some kind (according to the prospectus).

> > > > > > > It looks like this beast is both a bet on the actual metals, as well
> > > > > > > as a bet on the NAV premium. Metals I can grock, this premium, if it's
> > > > > > > stable (e.g. 11%) is transparent, but when the premium drops 5% for no
> > > > > > > apparent reason, how can one calculate the risks, etc. Maybe it's back
> > > > > > > to GLD, as much as I hate the JPM associations.

> > > > > > > I suppose it's a good time to buy. Has anyone kept track of the MAV/
> > > > > > > premium graph to know where it usually sits? I've found 11-15% most of
> > > > > > > the time I've looked, so I quit looking...

> > > > > > > maybe i should just quit looking at it... for a few years...

> > > > > > > best luck to all.

> > > > > > > --ikk

> > > > > > > On May 13, 10:02 am, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > Anyone have any more thoughts on why CEF is not tracking this week?
> > > > > > > > It was down about twice as much as it should have been today.  Is this
> > > > > > > > all based on rumors of a "dilution" like they did with GTU?

> > > > > > > > On May 7, 3:22 pm, davemcc3...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > > The Central Fund of Canada (CEF) is a pure, safe, easy way to play my
> > > > > > > > > hunch that the USD will inflate and gold and silver will appreciate in
> > > > > > > > > value faster than most stocks.  Actual, physical bars of fine gold and
> > > > > > > > > silver are stored in the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce’s vaults:
> > > > > > > > > only 0.7% of the bullion is in certificate form.  No “fiat money” in
> > > > > > > > > this stock.

> > > > > > > > > Shares trade on the AMEX at a discount or premium to net asset value.
> > > > > > > > > Go tohttp://www.centralfund.com/tocheckoutNAVandotherfacts
> > > > > > > > > about CEF.  Today, the premium is +8.2% of the London gold price.  As
> > > > > > > > > of May 7, 2009 CEF is –5.7% while the S&P is –38.4%, though the S&P
> > > > > > > > > has beaten CEF during the recent run-up.  CEF’s chart looks like a
> > > > > > > > > boring investment, paying a microscopic dividend.  That’s the
> > > > > > > > > definition of “dead money”.

> > > > > > > > > But …

> > > > > > > > > Go back to my first paragraph!  Maybe – just MAYBE – the gold bugs and
> > > > > > > > > other doomsday lunatics are right.  What if the USD drops massively
> > > > > > > > > against other currencies?  What if everybody in the world thinks
> > > > > > > > > precious metals are the only "Sound Monetary Fund” the Central Fund of
> > > > > > > > > Canada says it will be?  How will you feel having nothing that even
> > > > > > > > > resembles a gold bar in your house?

> > > > > > > > > I feel like a fool even asking these questions.  Or at least I did
> > > > > > > > > until 2009.

> > > > > > > > > Dave- Hide quoted text -

> > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

> And I totally agree, CEF can not be used for short term trading.

> How from far back did you go for your findings?  I would like to use
> the same
> dates in order for me to understand your findings.  I will try to see
> if the older
> and newer values of the Canadian dollar and USD has anything to do
> with
> the pricing of CEF.  Thanks.

> On May 14, 12:53 pm, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > You definitely cannot use CEF for short term trades due to its short
> > term unpredictable fluctuations.  But if you compare its long term
> > performance to GLD and SLV, it looks like it maybe even outperforms
> > them (put all three tickers on the same chart and CEF tends to be
> > higher than the midpoint of GLD and SLV over the long run).

> > I do not trust GLD and SLV to actually have the bullion they say they
> > do.  I am happy to trade them short term but do not feel comfortable
> > holding them through a financial panic, as I wouldn't want to be
> > holding them if rumors start circulating that HSBC or Barclays or any
> > of their myriad of "sub-custodians" doesn't actually have the physical
> > bullion they claim to.  If CEF doesn't start behaving again in the
> > next month I'll have to just switch to physical ownership and
> > certificates.

> > On May 13, 10:52 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > CEF has already shown me twice within one month to go down,
> > > decoupling from upward Kitco gold price movements.

> > > To me, that is a huge loss of money and I now have to pray that
> > > it goes back up.  These sudden downturns screw up my timing to
> > > sell CEF at a profit.  So, why should I stay with CEF?  Like I said
> > > before, I never had this problem with GLD or SLV.

> > > If I do not want the hassle of owning physical gold, then I should
> > > have gone for gold certificates and not for ETFs.  I would get only
> > > the certificates which can be exchange for bullions if I wanted to do
> > > it.
> > > There are many reputable companies out there; such as The Perth
> > > Mint Certificate Program, Royal Canadian Mint Prestige Account,
> > > Scotiabank Gold Certificates, etc...

> > > I made a mistake with CEF.

> > > Best of luck.

> > > On May 14, 12:30 am, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > It would seem like it would, but CEF has both a USD based and a CAD
> > > > based ticker for amex/tsx exchanges, respectively. I've assumed that
> > > > this distinction would take into account currency exchange, etc. With
> > > > that NAV premium floating around in there it is pretty hard to
> > > > separate/track the trends.

> > > > It certainly has NOT gone up proportionately to the CAD jump of the
> > > > last two weeks, in fact, it barely tracked rising Gold/Silver,
> > > > especially when GTU had its offering and distorted things a few weeks
> > > > back. I don't think it's actually recovered from that dip yet, let
> > > > alone today's aberrant drop.

> > > > But it sure seems to be following the CAD down.

> > > > To be sure, unlike GLD, this is truly a standalone, market-based
> > > > vehicle, with no assurances that the underlying value will be
> > > > appreciated/sought by *anyone*. GLD, by contract, acquires and
> > > > dispenses real gold based on the share count. Conversely, CEF has a
> > > > large, but *fixed* amount of real gold/silver with fixed shares, and
> > > > hopes that folks will want CEF's gold/silver as much as they might
> > > > want competing GLD, coins, jewelry, etc.

> > > > Right now, it looks like, CEF isn't nearly as attractive as those
> > > > alternatives... Looking at the last four months of graphs, I'm not
> > > > sure why I'm here either. It's either a scam, or a badly run
> > > > enterprise. Assuming that it's early 1960's birth would have taught
> > > > them something about the biz, it's probably a scam... (I'm kind of
> > > > hoping someone there is reading this and hearing my disgust... Given
> > > > that they never responded to a direct email, I don't think the holders
> > > > of this billion in metals gives a damn.)

> > > > Like you, I'm hoping maybe some sort of rush will drive the premium
> > > > back to where we bought, and carry the underlying value back up to
> > > > where it should be.

> > > > cheers,

> > > > --ikk

> > > > On May 13, 4:03 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > Can the devaluation of the US dollar affect CEF?

> > > > > On May 13, 6:54 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > I used GLD/SLV from november 2008 to January 2009.
> > > > > > They both faithfully tracked the kitco spot prices.  Not once did they
> > > > > > had sudden down shifts in prices.  But I suspect that they are full
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > derviatives.  So, I switched to CEF.A.  But, all these sudden
> > > > > > downturns turns in CEF.A are getting me nervous.

> > > > > > On May 13, 5:54 pm, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > This is disturbing short term, but I still think it's an opportunity.
> > > > > > > I feel way more comfortable with the safety/honesty of CEF compared to
> > > > > > > GLD/SLV and I feel it justifies a significant premium over those.
> > > > > > > You're right though, I hadn't paid much attention to the NAV premium
> > > > > > > and definitely will in the future.  I would expect the premium to
> > > > > > > fluctuate proportional to the amount of fear in the market.  I bet the
> > > > > > > premium will go up significantly if (when) there are renewed concerns
> > > > > > > about the insolvency of the big banks later this year/next year.

> > > > > > > On May 13, 1:44 pm, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > man, that's just F---d up. The NAV premium is down to 6ish percent
> > > > > > > > (from 11-13 last week).

> > > > > > > > look for dilution in early july, unless they get/got special
> > > > > > > > "permission" of some kind (according to the prospectus).

> > > > > > > > It looks like this beast is both a bet on the actual metals, as well
> > > > > > > > as a bet on the NAV premium. Metals I can grock, this premium, if it's
> > > > > > > > stable (e.g. 11%) is transparent, but when the premium drops 5% for no
> > > > > > > > apparent reason, how can one calculate the risks, etc. Maybe it's back
> > > > > > > > to GLD, as much as I hate the JPM associations.

> > > > > > > > I suppose it's a good time to buy. Has anyone kept track of the MAV/
> > > > > > > > premium graph to know where it usually sits? I've found 11-15% most of
> > > > > > > > the time I've looked, so I quit looking...

> > > > > > > > maybe i should just quit looking at it... for a few years...

> > > > > > > > best luck to all.

> > > > > > > > --ikk

> > > > > > > > On May 13, 10:02 am, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > > Anyone have any more thoughts on why CEF is not tracking this week?
> > > > > > > > > It was down about twice as much as it should have been today.  Is this
> > > > > > > > > all based on rumors of a "dilution" like they did with GTU?

> > > > > > > > > On May 7, 3:22 pm, davemcc3...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > The Central Fund of Canada (CEF) is a pure, safe, easy way to play my
> > > > > > > > > > hunch that the USD will inflate and gold and silver will appreciate in
> > > > > > > > > > value faster than most stocks.  Actual, physical bars of fine gold and
> > > > > > > > > > silver are stored in the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce's vaults:
> > > > > > > > > > only 0.7% of the bullion is in certificate form.  No "fiat money" in
> > > > > > > > > > this stock.

> > > > > > > > > > Shares trade on the AMEX at a discount or premium to net asset value.
> > > > > > > > > > Go tohttp://www.centralfund.com/tocheckoutNAVandotherfacts
> > > > > > > > > > about CEF.  Today, the premium is +8.2% of the London gold price.  As
> > > > > > > > > > of May 7, 2009 CEF is -5.7% while the S&P is -38.4%, though the S&P
> > > > > > > > > > has beaten CEF during the recent run-up.  CEF's chart looks like a
> > > > > > > > > > boring investment, paying a microscopic dividend.  That's the
> > > > > > > > > > definition of "dead money".

> > > > > > > > > > But ...

> > > > > > > > > > Go back to my first paragraph!  Maybe - just MAYBE - the gold bugs and
> > > > > > > > > > other doomsday lunatics are right.  What if the USD drops massively
> > > > > > > > > > against other currencies?  What if everybody in the world thinks
> > > > > > > > > > precious metals are the only "Sound Monetary Fund" the Central Fund of
> > > > > > > > > > Canada says it will be?  How will you feel having nothing that even
> > > > > > > > > > resembles a gold bar in your house?

> > > > > > > > > > I feel like a fool even asking these questions.  Or at least I did
> > > > > > > > > > until 2009.

> > > > > > > > > > Dave- Hide quoted text -

> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> > - Show quoted text -

> Three years back worked for me, so try May 12, 2006 - May 15, 2009.
> Paints a really good picture of CEF's performance in relation to SLV
> and GLD.

> On 14 май, 14:26, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > And I totally agree, CEF can not be used for short term trading.

> > How from far back did you go for your findings?  I would like to use
> > the same
> > dates in order for me to understand your findings.  I will try to see
> > if the older
> > and newer values of the Canadian dollar and USD has anything to do
> > with
> > the pricing of CEF.  Thanks.

> > On May 14, 12:53 pm, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > You definitely cannot use CEF for short term trades due to its short
> > > term unpredictable fluctuations.  But if you compare its long term
> > > performance to GLD and SLV, it looks like it maybe even outperforms
> > > them (put all three tickers on the same chart and CEF tends to be
> > > higher than the midpoint of GLD and SLV over the long run).

> > > I do not trust GLD and SLV to actually have the bullion they say they
> > > do.  I am happy to trade them short term but do not feel comfortable
> > > holding them through a financial panic, as I wouldn't want to be
> > > holding them if rumors start circulating that HSBC or Barclays or any
> > > of their myriad of "sub-custodians" doesn't actually have the physical
> > > bullion they claim to.  If CEF doesn't start behaving again in the
> > > next month I'll have to just switch to physical ownership and
> > > certificates.

> > > On May 13, 10:52 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > CEF has already shown me twice within one month to go down,
> > > > decoupling from upward Kitco gold price movements.

> > > > To me, that is a huge loss of money and I now have to pray that
> > > > it goes back up.  These sudden downturns screw up my timing to
> > > > sell CEF at a profit.  So, why should I stay with CEF?  Like I said
> > > > before, I never had this problem with GLD or SLV.

> > > > If I do not want the hassle of owning physical gold, then I should
> > > > have gone for gold certificates and not for ETFs.  I would get only
> > > > the certificates which can be exchange for bullions if I wanted to do
> > > > it.
> > > > There are many reputable companies out there; such as The Perth
> > > > Mint Certificate Program, Royal Canadian Mint Prestige Account,
> > > > Scotiabank Gold Certificates, etc...

> > > > I made a mistake with CEF.

> > > > Best of luck.

> > > > On May 14, 12:30 am, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > It would seem like it would, but CEF has both a USD based and a CAD
> > > > > based ticker for amex/tsx exchanges, respectively. I've assumed that
> > > > > this distinction would take into account currency exchange, etc. With
> > > > > that NAV premium floating around in there it is pretty hard to
> > > > > separate/track the trends.

> > > > > It certainly has NOT gone up proportionately to the CAD jump of the
> > > > > last two weeks, in fact, it barely tracked rising Gold/Silver,
> > > > > especially when GTU had its offering and distorted things a few weeks
> > > > > back. I don't think it's actually recovered from that dip yet, let
> > > > > alone today's aberrant drop.

> > > > > But it sure seems to be following the CAD down.

> > > > > To be sure, unlike GLD, this is truly a standalone, market-based
> > > > > vehicle, with no assurances that the underlying value will be
> > > > > appreciated/sought by *anyone*. GLD, by contract, acquires and
> > > > > dispenses real gold based on the share count. Conversely, CEF has a
> > > > > large, but *fixed* amount of real gold/silver with fixed shares, and
> > > > > hopes that folks will want CEF's gold/silver as much as they might
> > > > > want competing GLD, coins, jewelry, etc.

> > > > > Right now, it looks like, CEF isn't nearly as attractive as those
> > > > > alternatives... Looking at the last four months of graphs, I'm not
> > > > > sure why I'm here either. It's either a scam, or a badly run
> > > > > enterprise. Assuming that it's early 1960's birth would have taught
> > > > > them something about the biz, it's probably a scam... (I'm kind of
> > > > > hoping someone there is reading this and hearing my disgust... Given
> > > > > that they never responded to a direct email, I don't think the holders
> > > > > of this billion in metals gives a damn.)

> > > > > Like you, I'm hoping maybe some sort of rush will drive the premium
> > > > > back to where we bought, and carry the underlying value back up to
> > > > > where it should be.

> > > > > cheers,

> > > > > --ikk

> > > > > On May 13, 4:03 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > Can the devaluation of the US dollar affect CEF?

> > > > > > On May 13, 6:54 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > I used GLD/SLV from november 2008 to January 2009.
> > > > > > > They both faithfully tracked the kitco spot prices.  Not once did they
> > > > > > > had sudden down shifts in prices.  But I suspect that they are full
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > derviatives.  So, I switched to CEF.A.  But, all these sudden
> > > > > > > downturns turns in CEF.A are getting me nervous.

> > > > > > > On May 13, 5:54 pm, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > This is disturbing short term, but I still think it's an opportunity.
> > > > > > > > I feel way more comfortable with the safety/honesty of CEF compared to
> > > > > > > > GLD/SLV and I feel it justifies a significant premium over those.
> > > > > > > > You're right though, I hadn't paid much attention to the NAV premium
> > > > > > > > and definitely will in the future.  I would expect the premium to
> > > > > > > > fluctuate proportional to the amount of fear in the market.  I bet the
> > > > > > > > premium will go up significantly if (when) there are renewed concerns
> > > > > > > > about the insolvency of the big banks later this year/next year.

> > > > > > > > On May 13, 1:44 pm, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > > man, that's just F---d up. The NAV premium is down to 6ish percent
> > > > > > > > > (from 11-13 last week).

> > > > > > > > > look for dilution in early july, unless they get/got special
> > > > > > > > > "permission" of some kind (according to the prospectus).

> > > > > > > > > It looks like this beast is both a bet on the actual metals, as well
> > > > > > > > > as a bet on the NAV premium. Metals I can grock, this premium, if it's
> > > > > > > > > stable (e.g. 11%) is transparent, but when the premium drops 5% for no
> > > > > > > > > apparent reason, how can one calculate the risks, etc. Maybe it's back
> > > > > > > > > to GLD, as much as I hate the JPM associations.

> > > > > > > > > I suppose it's a good time to buy. Has anyone kept track of the MAV/
> > > > > > > > > premium graph to know where it usually sits? I've found 11-15% most of
> > > > > > > > > the time I've looked, so I quit looking...

> > > > > > > > > maybe i should just quit looking at it... for a few years...

> > > > > > > > > best luck to all.

> > > > > > > > > --ikk

> > > > > > > > > On May 13, 10:02 am, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > Anyone have any more thoughts on why CEF is not tracking this week?
> > > > > > > > > > It was down about twice as much as it should have been today.  Is this
> > > > > > > > > > all based on rumors of a "dilution" like they did with GTU?

> > > > > > > > > > On May 7, 3:22 pm, davemcc3...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > The Central Fund of Canada (CEF) is a pure, safe, easy way to play my
> > > > > > > > > > > hunch that the USD will inflate and gold and silver will appreciate in
> > > > > > > > > > > value faster than most stocks.  Actual, physical bars of fine gold and
> > > > > > > > > > > silver are stored in the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce's vaults:
> > > > > > > > > > > only 0.7% of the bullion is in certificate form.  No "fiat money" in
> > > > > > > > > > > this stock.

> > > > > > > > > > > Shares trade on the AMEX at a discount or premium to net asset value.
> > > > > > > > > > > Go tohttp://www.centralfund.com/tocheckoutNAVandotherfacts
> > > > > > > > > > > about CEF.  Today, the premium is +8.2% of the London gold price.  As
> > > > > > > > > > > of May 7, 2009 CEF is -5.7% while the S&P is -38.4%, though the S&P
> > > > > > > > > > > has beaten CEF during the recent run-up.  CEF's chart looks like a
> > > > > > > > > > > boring investment, paying a microscopic dividend.  That's the
> > > > > > > > > > > definition of "dead money".

> > > > > > > > > > > But ...

> > > > > > > > > > > Go back to my first paragraph!  Maybe - just MAYBE - the gold bugs and
> > > > > > > > > > > other doomsday lunatics are right.  What if the USD drops massively
> > > > > > > > > > > against other currencies?  What if everybody in the world thinks
> > > > > > > > > > > precious metals are the only "Sound Monetary Fund" the Central Fund of
> > > > > > > > > > > Canada says it will be?  How will you feel having nothing that even
> > > > > > > > > > > resembles a gold bar in your house?

> > > > > > > > > > > I feel like a fool even asking these questions.  Or at least I did
> > > > > > > > > > > until 2009.

> > > > > > > > > > > Dave- Hide quoted text -

> > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> I see that CEF is back up.  Here is an article which
> reminds me why I am with CEF; and not GLD and / or SLV.

> A Problem with GLD and SLV ETFs
> by Trace Mayer, J.D. on December 13, 2008

> http://www.runtogold.com/2008/12/a-problem-with-gld-and-slv-etfs/

> On May 15, 11:53 pm, stas3000 <stas3...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Three years back worked for me, so try May 12, 2006 - May 15, 2009.
> > Paints a really good picture of CEF's performance in relation to SLV
> > and GLD.

> > On 14 май, 14:26, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > And I totally agree, CEF can not be used for short term trading.

> > > How from far back did you go for your findings?  I would like to use
> > > the same
> > > dates in order for me to understand your findings.  I will try to see
> > > if the older
> > > and newer values of the Canadian dollar and USD has anything to do
> > > with
> > > the pricing of CEF.  Thanks.

> > > On May 14, 12:53 pm, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > You definitely cannot use CEF for short term trades due to its short
> > > > term unpredictable fluctuations.  But if you compare its long term
> > > > performance to GLD and SLV, it looks like it maybe even outperforms
> > > > them (put all three tickers on the same chart and CEF tends to be
> > > > higher than the midpoint of GLD and SLV over the long run).

> > > > I do not trust GLD and SLV to actually have the bullion they say they
> > > > do.  I am happy to trade them short term but do not feel comfortable
> > > > holding them through a financial panic, as I wouldn't want to be
> > > > holding them if rumors start circulating that HSBC or Barclays or any
> > > > of their myriad of "sub-custodians" doesn't actually have the physical
> > > > bullion they claim to.  If CEF doesn't start behaving again in the
> > > > next month I'll have to just switch to physical ownership and
> > > > certificates.

> > > > On May 13, 10:52 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > CEF has already shown me twice within one month to go down,
> > > > > decoupling from upward Kitco gold price movements.

> > > > > To me, that is a huge loss of money and I now have to pray that
> > > > > it goes back up.  These sudden downturns screw up my timing to
> > > > > sell CEF at a profit.  So, why should I stay with CEF?  Like I said
> > > > > before, I never had this problem with GLD or SLV.

> > > > > If I do not want the hassle of owning physical gold, then I should
> > > > > have gone for gold certificates and not for ETFs.  I would get only
> > > > > the certificates which can be exchange for bullions if I wanted to do
> > > > > it.
> > > > > There are many reputable companies out there; such as The Perth
> > > > > Mint Certificate Program, Royal Canadian Mint Prestige Account,
> > > > > Scotiabank Gold Certificates, etc...

> > > > > I made a mistake with CEF.

> > > > > Best of luck.

> > > > > On May 14, 12:30 am, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > It would seem like it would, but CEF has both a USD based and a CAD
> > > > > > based ticker for amex/tsx exchanges, respectively. I've assumed that
> > > > > > this distinction would take into account currency exchange, etc. With
> > > > > > that NAV premium floating around in there it is pretty hard to
> > > > > > separate/track the trends.

> > > > > > It certainly has NOT gone up proportionately to the CAD jump of the
> > > > > > last two weeks, in fact, it barely tracked rising Gold/Silver,
> > > > > > especially when GTU had its offering and distorted things a few weeks
> > > > > > back. I don't think it's actually recovered from that dip yet, let
> > > > > > alone today's aberrant drop.

> > > > > > But it sure seems to be following the CAD down.

> > > > > > To be sure, unlike GLD, this is truly a standalone, market-based
> > > > > > vehicle, with no assurances that the underlying value will be
> > > > > > appreciated/sought by *anyone*. GLD, by contract, acquires and
> > > > > > dispenses real gold based on the share count. Conversely, CEF has a
> > > > > > large, but *fixed* amount of real gold/silver with fixed shares, and
> > > > > > hopes that folks will want CEF's gold/silver as much as they might
> > > > > > want competing GLD, coins, jewelry, etc.

> > > > > > Right now, it looks like, CEF isn't nearly as attractive as those
> > > > > > alternatives... Looking at the last four months of graphs, I'm not
> > > > > > sure why I'm here either. It's either a scam, or a badly run
> > > > > > enterprise. Assuming that it's early 1960's birth would have taught
> > > > > > them something about the biz, it's probably a scam... (I'm kind of
> > > > > > hoping someone there is reading this and hearing my disgust... Given
> > > > > > that they never responded to a direct email, I don't think the holders
> > > > > > of this billion in metals gives a damn.)

> > > > > > Like you, I'm hoping maybe some sort of rush will drive the premium
> > > > > > back to where we bought, and carry the underlying value back up to
> > > > > > where it should be.

> > > > > > cheers,

> > > > > > --ikk

> > > > > > On May 13, 4:03 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > Can the devaluation of the US dollar affect CEF?

> > > > > > > On May 13, 6:54 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > I used GLD/SLV from november 2008 to January 2009.
> > > > > > > > They both faithfully tracked the kitco spot prices.  Not once did they
> > > > > > > > had sudden down shifts in prices.  But I suspect that they are full
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > derviatives.  So, I switched to CEF.A.  But, all these sudden
> > > > > > > > downturns turns in CEF.A are getting me nervous.

> > > > > > > > On May 13, 5:54 pm, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > > This is disturbing short term, but I still think it's an opportunity.
> > > > > > > > > I feel way more comfortable with the safety/honesty of CEF compared to
> > > > > > > > > GLD/SLV and I feel it justifies a significant premium over those.
> > > > > > > > > You're right though, I hadn't paid much attention to the NAV premium
> > > > > > > > > and definitely will in the future.  I would expect the premium to
> > > > > > > > > fluctuate proportional to the amount of fear in the market.  I bet the
> > > > > > > > > premium will go up significantly if (when) there are renewed concerns
> > > > > > > > > about the insolvency of the big banks later this year/next year.

> > > > > > > > > On May 13, 1:44 pm, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > man, that's just F---d up. The NAV premium is down to 6ish percent
> > > > > > > > > > (from 11-13 last week).

> > > > > > > > > > look for dilution in early july, unless they get/got special
> > > > > > > > > > "permission" of some kind (according to the prospectus).

> > > > > > > > > > It looks like this beast is both a bet on the actual metals, as well
> > > > > > > > > > as a bet on the NAV premium. Metals I can grock, this premium, if it's
> > > > > > > > > > stable (e.g. 11%) is transparent, but when the premium drops 5% for no
> > > > > > > > > > apparent reason, how can one calculate the risks, etc. Maybe it's back
> > > > > > > > > > to GLD, as much as I hate the JPM associations.

> > > > > > > > > > I suppose it's a good time to buy. Has anyone kept track of the MAV/
> > > > > > > > > > premium graph to know where it usually sits? I've found 11-15% most of
> > > > > > > > > > the time I've looked, so I quit looking...

> > > > > > > > > > maybe i should just quit looking at it... for a few years...

> > > > > > > > > > best luck to all.

> > > > > > > > > > --ikk

> > > > > > > > > > On May 13, 10:02 am, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > Anyone have any more thoughts on why CEF is not tracking this week?
> > > > > > > > > > > It was down about twice as much as it should have been today.  Is this
> > > > > > > > > > > all based on rumors of a "dilution" like they did with GTU?

> > > > > > > > > > > On May 7, 3:22 pm, davemcc3...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > The Central Fund of Canada (CEF) is a pure, safe, easy way to play my
> > > > > > > > > > > > hunch that the USD will inflate and gold and silver will appreciate in
> > > > > > > > > > > > value faster than most stocks.  Actual, physical bars of fine gold and
> > > > > > > > > > > > silver are stored in the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce's vaults:
> > > > > > > > > > > > only 0.7% of the bullion is in certificate form.  No "fiat money" in
> > > > > > > > > > > > this stock.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Shares trade on the AMEX at a discount or premium to net asset value.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Go tohttp://www.centralfund.com/tocheckoutNAVandotherfacts
> > > > > > > > > > > > about CEF.  Today, the premium is +8.2% of the London gold price.  As
> > > > > > > > > > > > of May 7, 2009 CEF is -5.7% while the S&P is -38.4%, though the S&P
> > > > > > > > > > > > has beaten CEF during the recent run-up.  CEF's chart looks like a
> > > > > > > > > > > > boring investment, paying a microscopic dividend.  That's the
> > > > > > > > > > > > definition of "dead money".

> > > > > > > > > > > > But ...

> > > > > > > > > > > > Go back to my first paragraph!  Maybe - just MAYBE - the gold bugs and
> > > > > > > > > > > > other doomsday lunatics are right.  What if the USD drops massively
> > > > > > > > > > > > against other currencies?  What if everybody in the

> i've migrated from GLD/SLV to CEF for a variety of reasons - mostly
> trust of the custodians, but I just read that famous fund manager
> Paulson is the largest GLD holder right now with $2.8 billion. wow.
> Maybe I shouldn't be so quick to discount GLD if someone like that is
> willing to go that big...

> jeez,

> --ikk

> On May 21, 4:25 am, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > I see that CEF is back up.  Here is an article which
> > reminds me why I am with CEF; and not GLD and / or SLV.

> > A Problem with GLD and SLV ETFs
> > by Trace Mayer, J.D. on December 13, 2008

> >http://www.runtogold.com/2008/12/a-problem-with-gld-and-slv-etfs/

> > On May 15, 11:53 pm, stas3000 <stas3...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > Three years back worked for me, so try May 12, 2006 - May 15, 2009.
> > > Paints a really good picture of CEF's performance in relation to SLV
> > > and GLD.

> > > On 14 май, 14:26, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > And I totally agree, CEF can not be used for short term trading.

> > > > How from far back did you go for your findings?  I would like to use
> > > > the same
> > > > dates in order for me to understand your findings.  I will try to see
> > > > if the older
> > > > and newer values of the Canadian dollar and USD has anything to do
> > > > with
> > > > the pricing of CEF.  Thanks.

> > > > On May 14, 12:53 pm, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > You definitely cannot use CEF for short term trades due to its short
> > > > > term unpredictable fluctuations.  But if you compare its long term
> > > > > performance to GLD and SLV, it looks like it maybe even outperforms
> > > > > them (put all three tickers on the same chart and CEF tends to be
> > > > > higher than the midpoint of GLD and SLV over the long run).

> > > > > I do not trust GLD and SLV to actually have the bullion they say they
> > > > > do.  I am happy to trade them short term but do not feel comfortable
> > > > > holding them through a financial panic, as I wouldn't want to be
> > > > > holding them if rumors start circulating that HSBC or Barclays or any
> > > > > of their myriad of "sub-custodians" doesn't actually have the physical
> > > > > bullion they claim to.  If CEF doesn't start behaving again in the
> > > > > next month I'll have to just switch to physical ownership and
> > > > > certificates.

> > > > > On May 13, 10:52 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > CEF has already shown me twice within one month to go down,
> > > > > > decoupling from upward Kitco gold price movements.

> > > > > > To me, that is a huge loss of money and I now have to pray that
> > > > > > it goes back up.  These sudden downturns screw up my timing to
> > > > > > sell CEF at a profit.  So, why should I stay with CEF?  Like I said
> > > > > > before, I never had this problem with GLD or SLV.

> > > > > > If I do not want the hassle of owning physical gold, then I should
> > > > > > have gone for gold certificates and not for ETFs.  I would get only
> > > > > > the certificates which can be exchange for bullions if I wanted to do
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > There are many reputable companies out there; such as The Perth
> > > > > > Mint Certificate Program, Royal Canadian Mint Prestige Account,
> > > > > > Scotiabank Gold Certificates, etc...

> > > > > > I made a mistake with CEF.

> > > > > > Best of luck.

> > > > > > On May 14, 12:30 am, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > It would seem like it would, but CEF has both a USD based and a CAD
> > > > > > > based ticker for amex/tsx exchanges, respectively. I've assumed that
> > > > > > > this distinction would take into account currency exchange, etc. With
> > > > > > > that NAV premium floating around in there it is pretty hard to
> > > > > > > separate/track the trends.

> > > > > > > It certainly has NOT gone up proportionately to the CAD jump of the
> > > > > > > last two weeks, in fact, it barely tracked rising Gold/Silver,
> > > > > > > especially when GTU had its offering and distorted things a few weeks
> > > > > > > back. I don't think it's actually recovered from that dip yet, let
> > > > > > > alone today's aberrant drop.

> > > > > > > But it sure seems to be following the CAD down.

> > > > > > > To be sure, unlike GLD, this is truly a standalone, market-based
> > > > > > > vehicle, with no assurances that the underlying value will be
> > > > > > > appreciated/sought by *anyone*. GLD, by contract, acquires and
> > > > > > > dispenses real gold based on the share count. Conversely, CEF has a
> > > > > > > large, but *fixed* amount of real gold/silver with fixed shares, and
> > > > > > > hopes that folks will want CEF's gold/silver as much as they might
> > > > > > > want competing GLD, coins, jewelry, etc.

> > > > > > > Right now, it looks like, CEF isn't nearly as attractive as those
> > > > > > > alternatives... Looking at the last four months of graphs, I'm not
> > > > > > > sure why I'm here either. It's either a scam, or a badly run
> > > > > > > enterprise. Assuming that it's early 1960's birth would have taught
> > > > > > > them something about the biz, it's probably a scam... (I'm kind of
> > > > > > > hoping someone there is reading this and hearing my disgust... Given
> > > > > > > that they never responded to a direct email, I don't think the holders
> > > > > > > of this billion in metals gives a damn.)

> > > > > > > Like you, I'm hoping maybe some sort of rush will drive the premium
> > > > > > > back to where we bought, and carry the underlying value back up to
> > > > > > > where it should be.

> > > > > > > cheers,

> > > > > > > --ikk

> > > > > > > On May 13, 4:03 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > Can the devaluation of the US dollar affect CEF?

> > > > > > > > On May 13, 6:54 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > > I used GLD/SLV from november 2008 to January 2009.
> > > > > > > > > They both faithfully tracked the kitco spot prices.  Not once did they
> > > > > > > > > had sudden down shifts in prices.  But I suspect that they are full
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > derviatives.  So, I switched to CEF.A.  But, all these sudden
> > > > > > > > > downturns turns in CEF.A are getting me nervous.

> > > > > > > > > On May 13, 5:54 pm, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > This is disturbing short term, but I still think it's an opportunity.
> > > > > > > > > > I feel way more comfortable with the safety/honesty of CEF compared to
> > > > > > > > > > GLD/SLV and I feel it justifies a significant premium over those.
> > > > > > > > > > You're right though, I hadn't paid much attention to the NAV premium
> > > > > > > > > > and definitely will in the future.  I would expect the premium to
> > > > > > > > > > fluctuate proportional to the amount of fear in the market.  I bet the
> > > > > > > > > > premium will go up significantly if (when) there are renewed concerns
> > > > > > > > > > about the insolvency of the big banks later this year/next year.

> > > > > > > > > > On May 13, 1:44 pm, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > man, that's just F---d up. The NAV premium is down to 6ish percent
> > > > > > > > > > > (from 11-13 last week).

> > > > > > > > > > > look for dilution in early july, unless they get/got special
> > > > > > > > > > > "permission" of some kind (according to the prospectus).

> > > > > > > > > > > It looks like this beast is both a bet on the actual metals, as well
> > > > > > > > > > > as a bet on the NAV premium. Metals I can grock, this premium, if it's
> > > > > > > > > > > stable (e.g. 11%) is transparent, but when the premium drops 5% for no
> > > > > > > > > > > apparent reason, how can one calculate the risks, etc. Maybe it's back
> > > > > > > > > > > to GLD, as much as I hate the JPM associations.

> > > > > > > > > > > I suppose it's a good time to buy. Has anyone kept track of the MAV/
> > > > > > > > > > > premium graph to know where it usually sits? I've found 11-15% most of
> > > > > > > > > > > the time I've looked, so I quit looking...

> > > > > > > > > > > maybe i should just quit looking at it... for a few years...

> > > > > > > > > > > best luck to all.

> > > > > > > > > > > --ikk

> > > > > > > > > > > On May 13, 10:02 am, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone have any more thoughts on why CEF is not tracking this week?
> > > > > > > > > > > > It was down about twice as much as it should have been today.  Is this
> > > > > > > > > > > > all based on rumors of a "dilution" like they did with GTU?

> > > > > > > > > > > > On May 7, 3:22 pm, davemcc3...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > The Central Fund of Canada (CEF) is a pure, safe, easy way to play my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > hunch that the USD will inflate and gold and silver will appreciate in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > value faster than most stocks.  Actual, physical bars of fine gold and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > silver are stored in the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce's vaults:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > only 0.7% of the bullion is in certificate form.  No "fiat money" in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > this stock.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Shares trade on the AMEX at a discount or premium to net asset value.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Go tohttp://www.centralfund.com/tocheckoutNAVandotherfacts

> CEF has already shown me twice within one month to go down,
> decoupling from upward Kitco gold price movements.

> To me, that is a huge loss of money and I now have to pray that
> it goes back up.  These sudden downturns screw up my timing to
> sell CEF at a profit.  So, why should I stay with CEF?  Like I said
> before, I never had this problem with GLD or SLV.

> If I do not want the hassle of owning physical gold, then I should
> have gone for gold certificates and not for ETFs.  I would get only
> the certificates which can be exchange for bullions if I wanted to do
> it.
> There are many reputable companies out there; such as The Perth
> Mint Certificate Program, Royal Canadian Mint Prestige Account,
> Scotiabank Gold Certificates, etc…

> I made a mistake with CEF.

> Best of luck.

> On May 14, 12:30 am, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > It would seem like it would, but CEF has both a USD based and a CAD
> > based ticker for amex/tsx exchanges, respectively. I've assumed that
> > this distinction would take into account currency exchange, etc. With
> > that NAV premium floating around in there it is pretty hard to
> > separate/track the trends.

> > It certainly has NOT gone up proportionately to the CAD jump of the
> > last two weeks, in fact, it barely tracked rising Gold/Silver,
> > especially when GTU had its offering and distorted things a few weeks
> > back. I don't think it's actually recovered from that dip yet, let
> > alone today's aberrant drop.

> > But it sure seems to be following the CAD down.

> > To be sure, unlike GLD, this is truly a standalone, market-based
> > vehicle, with no assurances that the underlying value will be
> > appreciated/sought by *anyone*. GLD, by contract, acquires and
> > dispenses real gold based on the share count. Conversely, CEF has a
> > large, but *fixed* amount of real gold/silver with fixed shares, and
> > hopes that folks will want CEF's gold/silver as much as they might
> > want competing GLD, coins, jewelry, etc.

> > Right now, it looks like, CEF isn't nearly as attractive as those
> > alternatives... Looking at the last four months of graphs, I'm not
> > sure why I'm here either. It's either a scam, or a badly run
> > enterprise. Assuming that it's early 1960's birth would have taught
> > them something about the biz, it's probably a scam... (I'm kind of
> > hoping someone there is reading this and hearing my disgust... Given
> > that they never responded to a direct email, I don't think the holders
> > of this billion in metals gives a damn.)

> > Like you, I'm hoping maybe some sort of rush will drive the premium
> > back to where we bought, and carry the underlying value back up to
> > where it should be.

> > cheers,

> > --ikk

> > On May 13, 4:03 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > Can the devaluation of the US dollar affect CEF?

> > > On May 13, 6:54 pm, pck8...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > I used GLD/SLV from november 2008 to January 2009.
> > > > They both faithfully tracked the kitco spot prices.  Not once did they
> > > > had sudden down shifts in prices.  But I suspect that they are full
> > > > of
> > > > derviatives.  So, I switched to CEF.A.  But, all these sudden
> > > > downturns turns in CEF.A are getting me nervous.

> > > > On May 13, 5:54 pm, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > This is disturbing short term, but I still think it's an opportunity.
> > > > > I feel way more comfortable with the safety/honesty of CEF compared to
> > > > > GLD/SLV and I feel it justifies a significant premium over those.
> > > > > You're right though, I hadn't paid much attention to the NAV premium
> > > > > and definitely will in the future.  I would expect the premium to
> > > > > fluctuate proportional to the amount of fear in the market.  I bet the
> > > > > premium will go up significantly if (when) there are renewed concerns
> > > > > about the insolvency of the big banks later this year/next year.

> > > > > On May 13, 1:44 pm, i.knok...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > man, that's just F---d up. The NAV premium is down to 6ish percent
> > > > > > (from 11-13 last week).

> > > > > > look for dilution in early july, unless they get/got special
> > > > > > "permission" of some kind (according to the prospectus).

> > > > > > It looks like this beast is both a bet on the actual metals, as well
> > > > > > as a bet on the NAV premium. Metals I can grock, this premium, if it's
> > > > > > stable (e.g. 11%) is transparent, but when the premium drops 5% for no
> > > > > > apparent reason, how can one calculate the risks, etc. Maybe it's back
> > > > > > to GLD, as much as I hate the JPM associations.

> > > > > > I suppose it's a good time to buy. Has anyone kept track of the MAV/
> > > > > > premium graph to know where it usually sits? I've found 11-15% most of
> > > > > > the time I've looked, so I quit looking...

> > > > > > maybe i should just quit looking at it... for a few years...

> > > > > > best luck to all.

> > > > > > --ikk

> > > > > > On May 13, 10:02 am, brooks.giff...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > Anyone have any more thoughts on why CEF is not tracking this week?
> > > > > > > It was down about twice as much as it should have been today.  Is this
> > > > > > > all based on rumors of a "dilution" like they did with GTU?

> > > > > > > On May 7, 3:22 pm, davemcc3...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > > > The Central Fund of Canada (CEF) is a pure, safe, easy way to play my
> > > > > > > > hunch that the USD will inflate and gold and silver will appreciate in
> > > > > > > > value faster than most stocks.  Actual, physical bars of fine gold and
> > > > > > > > silver are stored in the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce’s vaults:
> > > > > > > > only 0.7% of the bullion is in certificate form.  No “fiat money” in
> > > > > > > > this stock.

> > > > > > > > Shares trade on the AMEX at a discount or premium to net asset value.
> > > > > > > > Go tohttp://www.centralfund.com/tocheckoutNAVandotherfacts
> > > > > > > > about CEF.  Today, the premium is +8.2% of the London gold price.  As
> > > > > > > > of May 7, 2009 CEF is –5.7% while the S&P is –38.4%, though the S&P
> > > > > > > > has beaten CEF during the recent run-up.  CEF’s chart looks like a
> > > > > > > > boring investment, paying a microscopic dividend.  That’s the
> > > > > > > > definition of “dead money”.

> > > > > > > > But …

> > > > > > > > Go back to my first paragraph!  Maybe – just MAYBE – the gold bugs and
> > > > > > > > other doomsday lunatics are right.  What if the USD drops massively
> > > > > > > > against other currencies?  What if everybody in the world thinks
> > > > > > > > precious metals are the only "Sound Monetary Fund” the Central Fund of
> > > > > > > > Canada says it will be?  How will you feel having nothing that even
> > > > > > > > resembles a gold bar in your house?

> > > > > > > > I feel like a fool even asking these questions.  Or at least I did
> > > > > > > > until 2009.

> > > > > > > > Dave- Hide quoted text -

> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

> Premium over net asset value was down to 3.1% intraday today.  I'm
> looking for the spot price to drop back to where it was a month ago
> and buy some CEF shares for maybe a 5%-7% premium.

> Am I nuts?  Does CEF ever sell at a DISCOUNT to NAV?

> Dave

> Dave - I don't think CEF (or GLD/SLV for that matter) would ever sell
> at a discount to NAV because we are paying a premium in order to buy
> gold/silver through the stock market.  There is a premium associated
> with the convenience of purchasing metals this way (just like
> convenience stores like 7-11 charge a premium), and there is also the
> premium associated with not having to pay for storage and insurance of
> the metals.

> Well, I take that back, they would certainly sell for less than NAV if
> there was fear that the bullion was not in the vault, or was going to
> be confiscated by the government, or whatever.  Since we know CEF
> (unlike GLD/SLV) has the physical bullion in its possession, and since
> Canada is probably less likely to confiscate monetary metals in a
> currency crisis than the US is, it justifies a higher premium.

> I am perfectly confident to trade GLD or SLV or the ultras like AGQ
> short term.  The only times I would be scared of holding other than
> CEF is during a severe panic time when there are rumors that the banks
> serving as custodians of GLD/SLV may fail and/or sell assets to raise
> cash.

> That said - CEF is up to 12.6% premium today.  Despite my wavering
> confidence earlier in this thread, I never sold any CEF.  Now I think
> I will use sub-10% premium days to buy more, and sell it back off if
> the premium goes above 14% or so.  Although that might be getting a
> little bit too cute...

> On Jun 8, 11:57 am, kathandd...@verizon.net wrote:

> > Premium over net asset value was down to 3.1% intraday today.  I'm
> > looking for the spot price to drop back to where it was a month ago
> > and buy some CEF shares for maybe a 5%-7% premium.

> > Am I nuts?  Does CEF ever sell at a DISCOUNT to NAV?

> > Dave